Curse

BlackSephir · May 13, 2008, 09:40 PM // 21:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by dicecube

those IAS's stack?? omgwtf nerf sins!!!11!!111!!

Now imagine what would happen if someone doesn't have Nightfall.

OLOLOLO CR(IT AGI ISNT TEH ONLU ONE IAS ASSASSASSASSIN CAN USE!!!1

Kaleban · May 13, 2008, 09:53 PM // 21:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

Even in the worst of cases, a Blossom spammer can retry in 2 seconds. No biggie.

And miss again. And have Moebius miss too. And then crit defense and agility drop before recharge because you can't hit for crits.

OR

Take a shattersin build, which can hit anything regardless of stance or enchants, does very high single target damage, destroys all defenses on the opponent, and repeat every 4 seconds.

So you're saying the choice is between continual misses with Moebius-DB every 2 seconds, or solid hits and defense removal every 4 seconds. Hmmm...

Of course, the argument becomes moot against opponents like target dummies that don't defend or anything, but against even PvE enemies who use defensive enchants and stances, a shattersin just blasts through them.

But its like any other profession, you have to adapt the build to the area you're in, if you know you'll be facing mobs that don't regularly use enchants or stances for protection, then yes, a Moebius-DB is better. If, on the other hand, you know you'll be facing kournan bowmen backed up by aegis spamming healers, then rather than take it in the face because you stubbornly refuse to play anything but Moebius-DB, you take shattersin and mow them down.

The nice thing too is that a shattersin can, every 4 seconds completely wreck an opponent, then move on to the next, quickly and efficiently destroying defense after defense with quick unblockable attacks. Rather than having your casters worry about disenchanting multiple enemies, the shattersin can do that while doing impressive damage, so the casters can focus more on damage mitigation or nuking.

Just recognize that playing Moebius-DB isn't the ONLY way to play a sin, and in many ways is inefficient in various areas. The numbers look good when you do hit, but that's not always a guarantee...

FlamingMetroid · May 13, 2008, 10:24 PM // 22:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

stuff

you seem to be ignoring the fact that other characters can do this sort of thing from a much safer position. With the exception of maybe h/h'ing Asura areas (because of raptors), [moebius strike] is much more useful than [Shattering Assault].

Bobby2 · May 13, 2008, 10:26 PM // 22:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

So you're saying the choice is between continual misses with Moebius-DB every 2 seconds, or solid hits and defense removal every 4 seconds. Hmmm...

(yada yada yada, very much /snip)

What, do you live in a vacuum or something? Being in a party without enchant removal is /fail to begin with. When you know you're up against, say, Raptors with CritDef (which, by the way, isn't covered by anything) it's like, utter, massive, imba /fail.

Of course you could sacrifice huge amounts of DPS because you're too stupid/stubborn to put [skill]rip enchantment[/skill]/[skill]corrupt enchantment[/skill]/what-MFing-ever on any of your Heroes' bars, go right ahead. It's a free world.

As a reminder: [skill]critical defenses[/skill] Yes, that's a 30sec recharge. One removal effect should be enough. Considering a Blossom spammer's DPS

Kaleban · May 13, 2008, 10:31 PM // 22:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

What, do you live in a vacuum or something? Being in a party without enchant removal is /fail to begin with. When you know you're up against, say, Raptors with CritDef (which, by the way, isn't covered by anything) it's like, utter, massive, imba /fail.

Of course you could sacrifice huge amounts of DPS because you're too stupid/stubborn to put [skill]rip enchantment[/skill]/[skill]corrupt enchantment[/skill]/what-MFing-ever on any of your Heroes' bars, go right ahead. It's a free world.

Right, because Hero AI is so advanced that they are more than capable of removing any enchantment as soon as it comes up, what could I have been thinking.

Oh, I see, the player is supposed to micromanage all the heroes' skills on every single target. How fun.

Did you ever think that perhaps the reason people play with other builds is because it suits their playstyle, or because the convenience of point-and-click and NOT whiff is more fun than having the screen filled with hero bars and frantic clicking all over the place? Or perhaps you're just too stubborn/stupid to realize that not everyone shares your opinion that Moebius-DB is the only way to play? Or that your opinion is just that, opinion, and far from fact?

As a reminder: [skill]Critical Defenses[/skill] is not the only defensive enchant in the game, ever think about, oh say [skill]Protective Spirit[/skill] or [skill]Shield of Absorption[/skill] or [skill]Shield of Deflection[/skill] or [skill]Shield of Regeneration[/skill]? Considering a Blossom Spammer's DPS will be blocked or healed... I guess I must be too stubborn/stupid to realize your wisdom, my bad.

FlamingMetroid · May 13, 2008, 10:36 PM // 22:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

Moebius-DB is the best way to play

fix'd
yeah you may have your own different play style, but when it comes down to it MS/DB is the most efficient build out there. If you don't agree with everyone else on the sin forums, STFU and stop feeding us +1's, trying to argue against the best idea is only setting yourself up for failure.

Quote:

I guess I must be too stubborn/stupid to realize your wisdom

yes

Bobby2 · May 13, 2008, 10:40 PM // 22:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

As a reminder: [skill]Critical Defenses[/skill] is not the only defensive enchant in the game, ever think about, oh say [skill]Protective Spirit[/skill] or [skill]Shield of Absorption[/skill] or [skill]Shield of Deflection[/skill] or [skill]Shield of Regeneration[/skill]?

lolz @ teh Pee Vee Ee leetness

...or, notsomuch.

btw

+1

Kaleban · May 13, 2008, 10:47 PM // 22:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlamingMetroid

fix'd
yeah you may have your own different play style, but when it comes down to it MS/DB is the most efficient build out there in my dumb opinion. If you don't agree with everyone else on the sin forums, STFU and stop feeding us +1's, trying to argue against the the cookie cutter build is only setting yourself up for failure due to the sheep like mentality I possess

fix'd

Define efficiency in this context. Is the Assassin class designed to sit in the middle of a mob and dish out PBAoE damage?

No, its a happy coincidence, and one used to great effect. But that does not mean its the most efficient, since you don't even know the definition.

If the commonly accepted wisdom (lol) is to turn every sin into a Moebius-DB clone, well you all have fun. I kinda figured that since there's thousands of skills, and yes, other elites even, that assassin builds focused on spiking a target, or completely exposing them to more damage would be just as viable.

Ironically, I too use a Moebius-DB build, but I've actually had more fun and enjoyment with a shadow stepping AP build, as well as the shattersin build for the sheer enjoyment of not having to rely on h/h or other players to make sure my sin can do his job.

wtb open-mindedness...

Bobby2 · May 13, 2008, 10:59 PM // 22:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

Ironically, I too use a Moebius-DB build, but I've actually had more fun and enjoyment with a shadow stepping AP build, as well as the shattersin build for the sheer enjoyment of not having to rely on h/h or other players to make sure my sin can do his job.

wtb open-mindedness...

And there we have it

enjoyment =/= efficiency

I enjoy my [skill]assassin's promise[/skill]-[skill]finish him[/skill] more than my Blossom spammer (especially since I got my Norn rank up to a decent level) but I'll never claim it's more efficient. Truth remains the MS-DB build does the job (which is, killing stuff ASAP) a lot better.

End of discussion?

FlamingMetroid · May 13, 2008, 11:01 PM // 23:01

Onoz Everybody's Using It!!!!11!! It Must Be Bad!!!!!1!!
I Must Use A Less Effective Build, So I'm Not A Conformist!1!!!!111

edit-damn guru turned my mother f-ing fury off Q_Q

Kale Ironfist · May 14, 2008, 12:07 AM // 00:07

Quote:

Right, because Hero AI is so advanced that they are more than capable of removing any enchantment as soon as it comes up, what could I have been thinking.

They actually are. If it's available, and an enchantment is on their target, they will use it.

Quote:

As a reminder:[Critical Defenses] is not the only defensive enchant in the game, ever think about, oh say [Protective Spirit][Shield of Absorption][Shield of Deflection][Shield of Regeneration]? Considering a Blossom Spammer's DPS will be blocked or healed... I guess I must be too stubborn/stupid to realize your wisdom, my bad.

If you can handle having enchant strips on the midline (which doesn't take much to workaround), it's better to go MS/DB. The only time Shattering Assault is better is if you don't believe you'll get enchantment removal assistance. In a team of 8, this is standard to have.

zling · May 14, 2008, 12:42 AM // 00:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

Right, because Hero AI is so advanced that they are more than capable of removing any enchantment as soon as it comes up, what could I have been thinking.

Oh, I see, the player is supposed to micromanage all the heroes' skills on every single target. How fun.

Did you ever think that perhaps the reason people play with other builds is because it suits their playstyle, or because the convenience of point-and-click and NOT whiff is more fun than having the screen filled with hero bars and frantic clicking all over the place? Or perhaps you're just too stubborn/stupid to realize that not everyone shares your opinion that Moebius-DB is the only way to play? Or that your opinion is just that, opinion, and far from fact?

As a reminder: [skill]Critical Defenses[/skill] is not the only defensive enchant in the game, ever think about, oh say [skill]Protective Spirit[/skill] or [skill]Shield of Absorption[/skill] or [skill]Shield of Deflection[/skill] or [skill]Shield of Regeneration[/skill]? Considering a Blossom Spammer's DPS will be blocked or healed... I guess I must be too stubborn/stupid to realize your wisdom, my bad.

oooh so your Assassin has Prot Spirit/SoA/SoD/SoR in his build?

you need some sort of self survivability and Critical Agility+Critical Defenses is just the best combo for Sins...

as for the rest, you have heroes for a reason... use them PROPERLY!!!

Kaleban · May 14, 2008, 12:49 AM // 00:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

And there we have it

enjoyment =/= efficiency

I enjoy my [skill]assassin's promise[/skill]-[skill]finish him[/skill] more than my Blossom spammer (especially since I got my Norn rank up to a decent level) but I'll never claim it's more efficient. Truth remains the MS-DB build does the job (which is, killing stuff ASAP) a lot better.

End of discussion?

As I said, depends on what you define as efficient. A sin who is blind or blocked can MS-DB all he wants and his efficiency at killing = 0.

I wasn't claiming that enjoyment = efficiency either, merely stating that I enjoy other builds more. And in super heavy condition/hex/enchant heavy areas, such as a lot of HM and such, [skill]Rip Enchantment[/skill] on one necro isn't going to cut it.

Its like asking what build is most efficient for a Paragon? Sure, you can make them into a crit spear, but will that contribute to a team's overall efficiency more or less than an imbagon build?

Yes, Moebius+DB deals the most sustained AoE damage, but if you're knocked down, not hitting, blocked, blinded or any other conditions, it doesn't do anything. So logically, a build that is able to still deal out respectable damage whilst negating many of those conditions would necessarily be more efficient than one who cannot. Overall DPS might be lower on a straight up comparison, but over time the ability to strike through anything MAY make up for it.

You guys have your opinion, I have mine, let's leave it at that?

Kaleban · May 14, 2008, 12:50 AM // 00:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by zling

oooh so your Assassin has Prot Spirit/SoA/SoD/SoR in his build?

you need some sort of self survivability and Critical Agility+Critical Defenses is just the best combo for Sins...

as for the rest, you have heroes for a reason... use them PROPERLY!!!

Might want to learn to read first, those are enchants a sin has to deal with on enemies, which a shattersin breaks, while a Moebius+DB build does not. I thought that was painfully, glaringly obvious? Guess not.

Unreal Havoc · May 14, 2008, 01:07 AM // 01:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

Raptor Farming... a discussion best had elsewhere (the build is truly degenerate). If you're in a party just vanquishing for the hell of it, better to have someone else take Rip or Corrupt and happily keep Blossoming.

No one mentioned Raptor farming. Also Shattering Assault (correct me if I'm wrong) has a much shorter recharge than most other forms of enchantment removal. Hit Raptor with chain, switch to next Raptor, hit with chain, switch target, etc.

MS/DB is strong, there's no doubt about that, but it's not appropiate everywhere.

petrorabbit · May 14, 2008, 02:51 AM // 02:51

Personally, I jump between Moebius Strike / Death Blossom and Shattering Assault sin, sometimes I like to play Assassin's Promise for zits and giggles. But when it comes down to it, I think Shattering Assault is just more flexible because it can deal with the enemies defense. Yes, the dps on MSDB is insane and rewarding when you actually do pull off all the big numbers. But there have been times when a blind, block stance, or block enchant can screw up my cycle and leave me doing 0 dps till the defenses are taken care of. There are times when switching targets becomes a problem because Golden Phoenix Strike still needs a few seconds to recharge because Moebius Strike didn't hit or something else.

When I play Shattering Assault, I dont' run into those problems i run into with a Moebius build because of the unblockable chain. Sure its fun and can get boring because of the lack of big numbers, but the fact that you hit with every attack just makes the chain more consistant. The only thing you need to worry about is blind which can be taken care of with Assassin's Remedy. Yes i know i have H/H to compensate for all those weeknesses, but there are many times where i'd rather do it myself than rely on the AI to do it for me.

There is a reason why many people play different builds. MS/DB is very efficient with damage till the enemy blocks, blinds, or blurs vision you. But I still feel the attacks from a Shattering Assault chain are efficient because the energy you put into your attacks will more likely translate into damage.

But that is why I play different builds for different areas. Just don't count out shattering sins because their damage is less than MS/DB.

ogre_jd · May 14, 2008, 03:21 AM // 03:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

Ironically, I too use a Moebius-DB build, but I've actually had more fun and enjoyment with a shadow stepping AP build, as well as the shattersin build for the sheer enjoyment of not having to rely on h/h or other players to make sure my sin can do his job.

I've been having more fun, and been far more effective, with a Critical Barrage build. Nowhere near the front line when I can help it (any reduction in damage-dealing efficiency compared to the standard DB/MS combo is more than made up for by the fact that I don't get squished by Jotuns and such while I'm trying to get the combo off), deals lots of damage against groups (especially in Factions, where they seem to clump up a lot more than Proph/EotN), lots of bleeding against fleshies, no worries about broken chains, and few energy problems.

[Barrage][Distracting Shot][Sharpen Daggers][Critical Eye][Way of the Master][Critical Defenses][Heart of Shadow][Antidote Signet]

13 Critical Strikes, 12 Marksmanship and 3+ Shadow Arts (how much more depends on if you rune in a way to save a 20 point block, of course) and a Zealous bow of some sort (love my Ironwing Flatbow I just got today after Shiro). Can replace [[Heart of Shadow] with [[Viper's Defense] if you prefer to punish the relatively rare swarmings (or charge into the middle of a group, activate, then Barrage against that group to stack the degen), or maybe [[Shadow Refuge] for more reliable healing. Of course, if you have Nightfall, dump the shadow step for [[Critical Agility] (I find keeping the [[Antidote Signet]'s vital - Blindness sucks).

Doing a lot better with this build than my Barraging Ranger has ever been able to do.

RavagerOfDreams · May 14, 2008, 04:01 AM // 04:01

^needs more critical agility

anyway in pve Moebius>Shattering

for the very simple reason of DPS as for your arguements of enchants...just switch targets as monsters are to retarded to re prot your new target right away. Also Shattering assault has abosutley shitty damage vrs high al targets so your limited to squishes which is baed in pve.

Kaleban · May 14, 2008, 04:34 AM // 04:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by RavagerOfDreams

^needs more critical agility

anyway in pve Moebius>Shattering

for the very simple reason of DPS as for your arguements of enchants...just switch targets as monsters are to retarded to re prot your new target right away. Also Shattering assault has abosutley shitty damage vrs high al targets so your limited to squishes which is baed in pve.

Somewhat incorrect. [skill]Death Blossom[/skill]'s AoE damage IIRC is armor ignoring, so yes, when you're mobbed as a sin, DB does very good damage.

However, the added damage on the actual target is higher on [skill]Shattering Assault[/skill] than DB. So in situations where its imperative to take out single targets SA may be better.

The other thing to consider is [skill]Moebius Strike[/skill] only recharges on <50% health, on high health enemies (such as bosses or in HM) this can take some time, which allows monks to re-prot with protective or healing enchants. There's nothing more annoying than being in an aggro with a couple of dolyak herders casting multiple [skill]Mark of Protection[/skill] around, especially on boss types. In cases like that, you can MS+DB til the cows come home, but it seems to take forever. With SA, you remove it instantly and four seconds later remove any more (remember, its a dual attack so two enchants removed per instance).

Point is, MS+DB is great in situations where multiple melee mobs are likely, that do not possess any blocking or blind (including blurred vision). However, is higher end PvE, where protections of all sorts are quite common, SA may be better simply because its a 4 second recharge unblockable dual enchant remover, which I'm pretty sure beats out any other enchant removal in spades. Not to mention the added damage as well.

Both camps have their unique advantages, I'd say a shattersin is more versatile in more situations, making the entire party more efficient in killing, whereas a MS+DB sin has the advantage in DPS but depends heavily on support from the group plus being mobbed, which is not a great situation to be in with low armor anyways. Pretty sure most groups would appreciate a shattersin running around busting monk enchants like [skill]Aegis[/skill] and [skill]Shield of Absorption[/skill] every four seconds, as opposed to depending on [skill]Rip Enchantment[/skill] which is only 1 enchant every ten seconds and gives them Bleeding yay!

petrorabbit · May 14, 2008, 05:20 AM // 05:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

...snip
However, the added damage on the actual target is higher on [skill]Shattering Assault[/skill] than DB. So in situations where its imperative to take out single targets SA may be better.

Just to expand on this for those who are unaware, [skill]Shattering Assault[/skill] damage is considered base, so it IS effected by mods like 15^50 and affected by critical hit damage modifiers which the bonus damage on [skill]Death Blossom[/skill] is not. This also means the damage is affected by armor, so naturally warriors and paragons will take less damage from it. But i've seen an SS with a double crit SA hitting for 99 and 140 damage. The target also had armor reducing hexes.

As much as [skill]Moebius Strike[/skill] and [skill]Death Blossom[/skill] go hand in hand, so does [skill]Golden Fox Strike[/skill], [skill]Wild Strike[/skill], and [skill]Shattering Assault[/skill] do go together also. With MS DB, usually [skill]Golden Phoenix Strike[/skill] and [skill]Critical Strike[/skill] are included, but is also prone to be affected more by target switching and attacks missing much more than the Shattering Chain.

Of course, some problems with the Moebius Chain can be fixed by going:

[skill]Golden Fox Strike[/skill][skill]Wild Strike[/skill][skill]Critical Strike[/skill][skill]Moebius Strike[/skill][skill]Death Blossom[/skill] But that doesn't seem to be a popular choice.

For a while i used

[skill]Wild Blow[/skill][skill]Golden Phoenix Strike[/skill][skill]Critical Strike[/skill][skill]Moebius Strike[/skill][skill]Death Blossom[/skill] But that doesn't seem to go well burning adrenaline for [skill]Save Yourselves[/skill]